The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

This week, we read Hugo-award winner N.K. Jemisin's debut, The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms. Join us for a tale of magic, gods, political scheming, and, perhaps, a little bit of romance, as we discuss the perils of intrigue and what makes for a good fantasy story. 

Intro:
Pump Sting by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4251-pump-sting
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Outro:
Iron Bacon by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3925-iron-bacon
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Transcript

Matt:   0:04
Hello and welcome listeners to another episode of The Bro-dacious Book Club.

Erin:   0:11
It's a podcast where we host a book club -

Matt:   0:13
- where I haven't read the book.

Erin:   0:14
This podcast is for those who don't have time to read, but still want to know what's up in the world of fiction.

Matt:   0:20
I'm your host, Matt Thomas, and with me is my good good bro, the Sultan of Brotan the brostess with the mostest, Erin Rockfort.

Erin:   0:29
Hi there. And as always, this podcast is an attempt to make books a little bit more accessible for those of you who don't have the time or the energy to read but also is a time where you can listen to us chat about books that maybe you have read. 

Matt:   0:48
If I know what's up by the end of this than you, Erin, have done your job. And also,

Erin:   0:48
And, as always, this podcast is meant for entertainment purposes. We mean no disrespect to the authors or the books discussed. We just think we're funny.

Matt:   0:56
And with that also obviously spoiler alert, there will be spoilers. We're going to be discussing major plot points in the books that we review.  

Erin:   1:05
Yeah, I think that's a good verb.  

Matt:   1:07
Fair enough.. So if you are looking to avoid spoilers then perhaps read the book first.

Erin:   1:14
Yes, and even if you haven't read it already, we always encourage reading the books for yourself and getting it them legally, like from the library or buying them.  

Matt:   1:24
That's right.  

Erin:   1:25
Don't steal books

Erin:   1:25
Don't steal books . It's bad. And with that, we're off to the races. What are we reading today, Erin?

Erin:   1:32
So, today we're reading "The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms" by N.K. Jemisin. If you do know a little bit about the world of speculative fiction, you may recognize that name, N.K. Jemison. She won the Hugo Award three years in a row for her broken Earth trilogy.

Matt:   1:45
Three years in a row. Okay.

Erin:   1:48
And you may be wondering why we're not reading that. And the answer is simple, It's just that I figured that the first book in the series, "The Fifth Season," would be a little bit difficult to summarize for the purposes of an audience. And if you've read the book, you probably know why that is no spoilers, and we may revisit that one day, but not at the moment.

Erin:   2:09
Who knows? Anything's possible. But okay. All right. So when was this written, is this recent? 

Erin:   2:16
So this book came out in 2010. It was actually nominated for Hugo that the year it came out. And I picked it partially because it is sort of contemporaneous to the book we read last week, which was "The Name of the Wind." And I think it would be interesting if we can have a little bit of discussion about contrasts between the two.

Matt:   2:36
Of course. Absolutely. Sounds good. Now you say it's similar. So paint me a word picture here, Erin, when does it take place? Where does it take place? What's the setting?

Erin:   2:44
S o just like "The Name of the Wind," this is a high fantasy novel. It takes place entirely within a place called the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms and is actually a very insular book in a lot of ways. It takes place almost entirely in one location, which is the Palace of Sky, which is the capital of this world.

Matt:   3:03
I personally have a special affection for forms of media to take place all in one location. "The Man from Earth," "12 Angry Men," "Another One," films, of course, not books, but still excellent in their own right. Excited to see what this has in store for us. So who are the players here? Maybe you want to just get us started. Tell us a little bit about the story, the plot. .

Erin:   3:25
Yeah! So the main character, her name is Yeine Darre. She's basically the granddaughter of the ruler of the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms. Through his daughter, who was his heir and his favourite. And her mother ran away when she was a young adult in order to marry Yeine's father. There was this very romantic story that she grew up with about her mother leaving behind it all to be with their father, which we may complicate a little throughout the story. She is at the beginning of the story, 19 years old, and she has been called to the Palace of Sky. Both of her parents are now dead.

Matt:   3:58
Interesting, mysterious, cryptic. I'm guessing we don't - we're not told why how they died or?

Erin:   4:06
We get a little bit of information. Her mother was poisoned. I'm not actually sure what her father died of which I may have just forgotten to write down.

Matt:   4:13
Fair, fair enough, fair enough.

Erin:   4:14
- when it came up, both sort of under mildly suspicious circumstances for sure..

Matt:   4:19
So were summoned to the palace. And what for? What happens then?

Erin:   4:23
Well, you'll have to see. I

Matt:   4:25
I'll have to see, okay, good.,

Erin:   4:27
And I just wanted, before we really get into it, if you are at any point planning on reading this story, I just want to give a brief content warning that there is discussion of past sexual assault. We're probably not gonna talk about it much just because it isn't super relevant to the story. And that feels like a weird energy to bring in here. But I just wanted to give everyone the heads up if they do choose to read the book.

Matt:   4:48
Okay, so we've got a wayward adventure type, the main character. We've got the tragic death of both parents, and we've got it wouldn't be accurate to characterize the ruler of the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms as the wise old man, or is he more of a tyrant? He's more of a

Erin:   5:04
He's more of a tyrant, he's - I don't think he's ever referred to by the title of Emperor, but that's very much what is his job because the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms, as the name kind of implies, are a bunch of small nations and tribes that he rules over.

Matt:   5:21
Absolutely. Okay. Okay, Wonderful. Well, I guess without giving too much of the plot away, then can you tell us a little bit about the general arc of the story? The direction that it takes?

Erin:   5:32
Yeah, I think that's actually gonna be a discussion for as we as we go along, because I think the book very much drops you in the middle of all of this. And I think there's a little bit of figuring out what the arc is going to be as you go along. So I'd be interested to see if we come to the same conclusions about what the arc is.

Matt:   5:50
Okay! And with that...

Erin:   5:53
We start with a cryptic narration. It's all told in first person, which also makes it a bit interesting because much of "The Name of the Wind" is, as well. We start with this bit of narration: "I am not as I once was. They have done this to me, broken me open and torn up my heart. I do not know who I am anymore. I must try to remember." And then we get a break and we launch into her arriving at the Palace of Sky, which is floating. 

Matt:   6:23
Sure. Hence the name?

Erin:   6:24
I think that's a pretty logical leap to make here. Her grandfather rules there. His name is Dekarta, and we get some of this back story about her mother and how she ran away. We also learned that everyone in the palace are part of the family. Technically, the word that's used is "Arameri," which means that they have a blood relation somehow to Dekarta, the emperor in all but name. But there's very few full bloods, most of them are like half bloods or less. They're divided by blood for jobs. So, like all of the servants are also technically part of the family.  

Matt:   6:57
Interesting.  

Erin:   6:58
Yeah. So she's brought to see her grandfather, at which point she learns that she is going to be competing for the position of rightful heir, basically. So she has two cousins who are not as - like she is obviously the direct granddaughter, and they're only cousins, but they've also grown up there, they know their ways. There's Scimina and Relad, are theirnames. They've grown up with this as their norm, whereas she's coming in from a, like a much more rural, much more -  

Matt:   7:26
Humble?  

Erin:   7:27
Humble - they sort of dismissed her as like a barbarian, because she didn't grow up in this palace.

Matt:   7:33
Now interesting that you used the word barbarian there. I'm a little curious, just for the purposes of contextualization, and perhaps it's purposefully vague in this respect, and you won't be able to answer the question. But in terms of empire, are we talking more Holy Roman or Empire of China? Is this more Eastern or Western? Do we know? 

Erin:   7:53
It's kind of neither? I would say it maybe resembles the Roman Empire a little bit more in terms of like vastly different - and Roman Empire at, like its peak, where there are vastly different groups of people who are all technically ruled by the emperor.  

Matt:   8:10
Okay, yeah.

Erin:   8:11
And it's worth noting that she looks different, like her skin is darker than most people in Sky, so she's like physically set apart as well. We also get to learn a little bit about the mythology and the magic system, which is basically that magic comes from the gods and there's three - well, there were three gods. There was Itempas, who was the god of the day. There was Nahadoth who was the god of the night and then Enefa who was the goddess of twilight, and like life and death in balance. And according to their religion, Itempas killed Enefa and overthrew Nahadoth and emerged as the leader - not even leader, like the only God. And he gives legitimacy to the ruler of the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms.

Matt:   8:57
I see

Erin:   8:58
There's other sort of minor gods as well, but those are the three important ones. All the others are like their children, basically. As she arrives, she also learns that the other gods air still around, but they're actually - they've all been enslaved to her family, basically. They've all been forced to live in the palace and forced to obey the commands of the family members. So in her first day, she meets her grandfather and learns that she's going to be competing for heir, kind of whether or not she likes it. And they immediately rushed her off, and it's a whole thing to like get her to the sort of palace magician in order for her to be marked as Arameri,, because if she's not marked as a member of the family, she could be preyed upon by any of the gods. Because they're there under command to not hurt anyone who is marked. but anyone who isn't could be in danger. So she befriends one of the servants, his name is T'vril. He's technically family of her is but like distantly, and he's a half-blood. So he's just a regular servant. As he's rushing her through the halls to get to the palace magician, she runs into Scimina, who is one of her rivals, and Scimina is there with Nahadoth, The Night Lord, and it's about to be twilight, at which point he will - like, once the sun has set, he assumes all of his powers, and she tries to sic him on Yeine, our main character, and T'vril is basically just like run. And so she tries. She's helped by one of the other Godlings, who appears as a child. His name is Sieh, he used to be the trickster God.

Matt:   10:34
Okay, this is the children of one of the Three.

Erin:   10:37
Yes, yes. Nahadoth ends up catching up to her and she stabs him, which is not super effective, given that he is a god. But somehow that helps him come back to himself. And before he passes out, he kisses her and she's a little bit hmm, that was weird.

Matt:   10:52
Hmm. Odd. Gods are weird. 

Erin:   10:55
But then, when he wakes up again from having been stabbed, he's kind of regained his mind, and he's no longer a danger to her. So the Godlings give her a special mark to kind of go underneath the official mark because the one that everyone is officially given is also a way for the emperor to control them, so she doesn't have to obey his commands, necessarily.

Matt:   11:16
Now, quick question: is magic something that is very common?

Erin:   11:20
No, it's extremely uncommon, like it is pretty much only done through the will of the gods. So there is, like the family members, so, like Scimina and the Emperor and Yeine could command the gods to do things for them, and that's kind of how they do magic. And then there's also  Viraine, who is the palace magician, and he is the only person who has magic. Like it still comes from the gods, like I think it comes specifically from Itempas, but he can't do a ton of things with it.  

Matt:   11:52
Okay.  

Erin:   11:53
And again, it's only by the blessing of the gods. Yeine starts to get into her life, her new life. She starts to get used to how things are in the palace, as much as you can get used to a world in which you are complete foreigner and everyone is kind of out to get you. Sieh, who is the child trickster god, he wants to spend a lot of time with her and proposes an alliance. There's two other Godlings around and part of this alliance. There's Zhakkarn who is the goddess of Battle and Kurue who is the goddess of wisdom. And she's trying to figure out basically how to protect the place she grew up , the nation, the tribe she grew up in, but also not die in the middle of this conflict between the cousins. And there's this sort of uncomfortable position that exists between her and the gods because she doesn't want to use them, but they're also godly and unknowing, but also if she orders them to do anything, they have to do it. And Nahadoth kind of calls her out for it. And she promises not to command them to do anything, but it's still this uncomfortable...

Matt:   12:56
Tension.  

Erin:   12:56
Yeah, tension. And Viraine, who's the court magician, he tells her to stay away from them and not to care about the gods because he can tell that she's bonding with them.

Matt:   13:06
Now, another quick question. The godlings that are a part of the court as well as the two - let's call them primary gods, major gods, are those the only gods? Are there more godlings out in the wild? 

Erin:   13:20
It's kind of implied that there might be more godlings out in the wild, but these are the ones that the story concerns itself with. The other ones don't really have a part in the story. And there's two sequels to this book. I haven't read either of them, and so they might explore that more. I don't know at this time. 

Matt:   13:37
Alright, fair. 

Erin:   0:00
She finally ends up meeting Relad, who's the other rival. He warns her that she shouldn't love anything because whatever she loves, Scimina will use it to get to her. And she's like, "well, I don't really, you know, my parents are dead, I don't have anyone I care about." But then she realizes that she cares about her tribe and her land still, so that's her obvious weakness. And Dekarta, her grandfather, kills a man in front of her to try and test her, and ends up sort of deciding that she's weak. And she ends up having to come to terms with the fact that her mother was cruel and vicious at times and fit in with the palace lifestyle. And, of course, the mother that she knew was kind and gentle and loving and all that kind of stuff, but that she had a life before that. She also get some information about Enefa, the goddess who died, and how she was poisoned by Itempas. And also the three gods, the main three, were all lovers at different times, like with this very polyamorous triangle happening.

Matt:   0:00
Indeed. Again, gods be gods.  

Erin:   14:37
Gods be gods!

Matt:   14:37
Doing god things.

Erin:   14:37
And they refer to each other as like brother and sister.  

Matt:   14:40
Good stuff.  

Erin:   14:40
Any mythology system does that thing.  

Matt:   14:43
That's right.  

Erin:   14:43
So I think that's not really something to read too much into. Also Yeine's like, kind of into it. And, like, kinda into Nahadoth. She's like, Oh, I'm - I like this idea of controlling him. But also he's terrifying and this extremely volatile God -

Matt:   14:59
God of Darkness indeed. Yeah.

Erin:   15:01
And also,, I guess, sensing this in her, Viraine, the palace magician, is like, just so you know, if you have sex with Nahadoth, you will die, like it will kill you. Mortals cannot have sex of God's. This is not a thing. And he also tells her about how, at one point, her mother came back to Sky and she has no knowledge of this. And it was to try and save her father because her dad became really sick at one point with this disease that's normally not curable, but it didn't kill him. So she starts to kind of wonder like, what did her mother do when she came back? How did that tie into her dad's like miraculous recovery? And she comes to the realization that her grandfather would have turned her mother away. But she would also have had an opportunity to meet with the gods. And perhaps they were the ones who helped her father. So she learns kind of accidentally that she looks very similar to Enefa, the goddess who was killed. And when she realizes that the knowledge overwhelms her and she passes out and almost dies and when she wakes up and the gods are all kind of standing around her, she's like, "What's happening?"

Matt:   16:12
What's going? Yes, something's up here..

Erin:   16:14
So they eventually explain to her that her mother agreed to offer her up to the gods to put the remnants of Enefa's Soul into her in exchange for saving her dad.  

Matt:   16:27
Interesting.  

Erin:   16:28
The gods make sure to mention that it's two different souls occupying the same body.

Matt:   16:33
Okay, kind of like a Harry/Voldemort thing

Erin:   16:35
It is. There's this interesting piece of duality in the story, because Nahadoth is also someone completely different by day and by night. He has a mortal personality, is someone completely different during the day, and then he's a God at night. And Scimina also kind of uses him as a sex slave when he's in his mortal form? That's not important.  

Matt:   16:55
Interesting.

Erin:   16:55
It's interesting because he's described as being change incarnate, and he's locked into the form that he currently possesses, which can shift a little bit, and it's explained that his form sort of changes based on what people expect him to be, but only a certain amount, because normally he is a being that is fluid in terms of gender and sexuality and stuff. Like he was Itempas' lover, but also Enefa's lover and takes feminine and masculine forms, which is kind of interesting.

Matt:   17:23
Super interesting. You said this was written in 2013?

Erin:   17:26
2010 is when this came out Yeah, very ahead of the curve.

Matt:   17:30
Very ahead of the curve. Now another quick question here about the rivals. How would you describe the nature of their relationship with our hero, with our protagonist? More straight antagonistic or...? 

Erin:   17:43
Scimina's relationship is straight antagonistic. She is driven, ambitious. She wants to become the next head of the family, and is sort of willing to do anything she can to get there. Whereas Relad is more kind of resigned to whatever fate he meets, like he's frequently drunk. He's just trying to get by. The two of them, have peace with each other and have grown up - like they're brother and sister, have grown up together. But it's also like, without question, Scimina would overthrow her brother  

Matt:   18:11
Absolutely.  

Erin:   18:12
Yeah, and he's more relaxed towards Yeine. He doesn't care as much what she's doing, because he also doesn't care as much what he does.

Matt:   18:21
Well, if he gives her tips, yeah.

Erin:   18:23
And it's mostly a tip of like how to survive, because he's just kind of resigned to the world in which his sister is going to beat him and become the next head of the family. Yeine learns that the remnants of Enefa's power could be used to free the gods who are currently enslaved, which obviously the gods are interested in. And the power is contained within this thing called the Stone of Earth. It's within the palace, and it's used, actually, to transfer the head of the family mark, which is the one that gives Dekarta power over everyone else, from him to his successor. So it's used any time power passes, which obviously doesn't happen that often, but it's going to be used soon because that's coming up. She also learns that one person has to hold the stone and make the transfer from person to person, and the moment of holding the stone is too powerful for humans, so it kills whoever is holding it, and she realizes that that's why she has been brought, is to be the one who holds it and dies. But she has Enefa's soul within her as well. So there's a possibility that she could use it to free the godlings. It would still kill her, but she could use it to do something good.

Matt:   19:36
Right, so that's her opportunity, then, during this coronation, perhaps?

Erin:   19:40
Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. And she also finds out that Scimina has gathered the kingdoms that she controls, and has set them to war against Yeine's homeland.

Matt:   19:51
I saw that one coming.

Erin:   19:53
Yeah, just a bit. And the gods promise her that if she sets them free, they will protect her homeland. And also, they're gonna wage war against Itempas. And I don't know if those two objectives completely go together, but that's okay.

Matt:   20:04
Meh. Some of your priority, some of ours, right? At the end of the day, gods be gods.

Erin:   20:09
Yeah, gods be gods and gods be vengeful.

Matt:   20:12
That's right. That's right.

Erin:   20:14
Nahadoth also tries to remove the two souls, he tries to separate them and to take Enefa's soul back, because he isn't happy with the way things are. But they're too entwined.  

Matt:   20:24
Yeah, to no avail. Again, saw that coming. Fair enough.

Erin:   20:24
Yeah, you begin to notice as you're reading, there's all these narrative asides, where, for all intents and purposes, the protagonist is talking to herself. But it becomes clear that it's actually a two way conversation between her soul and Enefa's.

Matt:   20:40
Oh, that's brilliant. That must have been a pleasure to read.

Erin:   20:43
It's a really fun reveal when you get to it, to realize that it's them talking to each other. The conversations are not always nice or civil, but they're interesting. Nahadoth ends up taking Yeine to her homeland to speak with her grandmother. She needs to know if her grandmother knew anything about the deal to put a goddess' soul inside of her  

Matt:   21:04
Right.  

Erin:   21:04
Her grandmother didn't. But there's sort of a back and forth where she's like, "Is her soul going to consume mine? Is - like what's going to happen here?" And Nahadoth is basically like, "Who knows? This has never been done before," and she smacks him.

Matt:   21:18
Good stuff.  

Erin:   21:19
And then there's a bit of a weird moment where he puts like a finger to her lips, and she gets a taste of it and is into it. And it's like, girl, your grandma's standing right there.  

Matt:   21:30
Super weird, super weird. But I mean, fair enough.  

Erin:   21:33
Yeah, she's 19? So there's a bit of an aside where T'vril,  who's the servant that she has befriended,,he takes her to a low blood party to kind of hang out and she ends up having some fun there. And then she and T'vril end up sleeping together.

Matt:   21:49
Yeah, saw that coming, again. I wasn't gonna ask when you mentioned, but you made sure to mention when you're saying they were related that they were distantly related, so, saw that coming a mile away.

Erin:   22:00
But like it's super chill like they're more friends than they are anything else, but they end of sleeping together. She also in the night calls it to Nahadoth, and ends up kissing him.  

Matt:   22:09
Okay.  

Erin:   22:10
She tries to get Viraine to send a message secretly to her grandmother. He turns her down after she realizes that one of the things that he is in charge of doing for the palace is taking low bloods and making them into monsters for entertainment purposes for the high bloods.

Matt:   22:27
Hmm. As you do, as you do.

Erin:   22:30
Yeah, I feel like there's probably some not super subtle metaphors happening in the story. So instead she goes to Nahadoth and asks him, but instead of just sending a message, he takes her to meet with the leaders of the kingdoms that are attacking her homeland. And she tries to get them to capitulate and they don't, so she gets Nahadoth to turn them to stone.

Matt:   22:53
Fair enough. Gods be vengeful.

Erin:   23:02
Gods be vengeful. And also people be vengeful. Which does successfully stop them from invading her homeland. So it  was not all a loss.

Matt:   23:03
Eh, not for me to say.

Erin:   23:04
Yeah. Afterwards, when they get back to the palace, she does cry and he comforts her - just like hugging her.  

Matt:   23:10
Sure.

Erin:   23:10
Not with anything else.  

Matt:   23:11
Indeed.

Erin:   23:14
Scimina finds out that she has kind of screwed with her plans, and she ends up torturing Sieh, who is the child god, who's - I mean, he's not a child because he's a god, but he appears as a child. And he's very childish in general, like he's often -

Matt:   23:30
He's the trickster.

Erin:   23:30
Yeah, and he is often turning to Yeine for comfort because Enefa, the soul that she houses, was his mother.  

Matt:   23:37
Okay, I see.   

Erin:   23:38
So he has some - and also just they build a relationship together as well, but that's part of it. So Scimina is torturing Sieh and Nahadoth takes his place instead so that she's torturing him, in an attempt to basically get revenge on Yeine. Yeine eventually gets her to stop the torture, though Scimina is still like, "Well, but I'm still gonna take over your homeland and enslave your people." And Yeine like smacks her across the floor. And it's great.

Matt:   24:06
Yeah, with the fist of a vengeful goddess.

Erin:   24:09
Yeah. So the night of the coronation there's going to also be a ball and Viraine comes to invite her and say, "Well, let me be your escort.". And also in this conversation tells her that her mother was his first lover. Which is an interesting tactic when you're asking a girl out.

Matt:   24:24
Yeah, super interesting. Okay. Sorry, just, forgive me again - this is the court magician?

Erin:   24:28
Yes, this is a court magician. She also finds out that the thing that probably turned her mother against her grandfather was finding out that Dekarta murdered his own wife as part of the succession ceremony.  

Matt:   24:41
Ah. She held the stone?  

Erin:   24:42
Yeah, she was the one who held the stone. So that was probably as much of a part of her mother turning away as it was falling in love with her father. And she also realizes that the only person who could possibly have sent the illness to her land - because it's kind of a magical based illness,  which almost killed her father - could only have been sent by Viraine. And then she thinks it was revenge.

Matt:   25:04
I see. So she's probably not gonna accept his invitation there. 

Erin:   25:08
Yeah, she's not super into that. T'vril also comes and offers to escort her. She turns him down, but, like very lovingly, like, "I I just need to do this by myself." It's very sweet. She also walks in on Viraine crying in his office by himself and is just kind of like "not going to deal with this today" and walks back out

Matt:   25:25
Again as you do, crying in your office by yourself? Oddly familiar.

Erin:   25:31
Yep. She goes to Scimina and requests Nahadoth from her, as like a pet? And Scimina goes kind of like, "Well, yeah, go ahead and have him for the day or so you still have left to live." And the mortal form of him is like, "I know you're into my godly form, please don't make me wake up next to a corpse again, because that's happened too many times." And she doesn't do anything with him when he's mortal because he's kind of a different person. But then when he becomes his godly self, they do end up sleeping together.

Matt:   25:59
And let me guess, she doesn't die.

Erin:   26:02
She doesn't die! 

Erin:   26:02
Cause she's got a goddess in her.

Erin:   26:05
Which is great. And also he is able to like hold himself back enough, and she trusts him to do that as well. But she also kind of has this view of like, "Well, if I die, I die, like I guess this is just gonna happen." Sometimes you just gotta smash.

Matt:   26:19
You know, that's exactly right. Sometimes it's worth it.

Erin:   26:24
So she and Relad end up making a bit of an alliance, and they go to the ball. Then they move on to the ritual and the big succession ceremony. She confronts Dekarta and is like, "My mother still loved you, you were still her dad, and why did you kill her?" And he's like, "I didn't kill her." Like he's just a surprised by this accusation and reveals that he brought her to Sky initially because he thought maybe she killed her own mother. So they've both -

Matt:   26:52
What a twist.

Erin:   26:52
They've both been kind of like sizing each other up a little bit. And she immediately suspects Viraine must have also killed her mother.

Matt:   26:58
I was gonna say, obviously.

Erin:   26:58
But they don't really have time to accuse him. So we blow on past to the succession ceremony. She goes to take the stone, which is the remainder of Enefa's power. But before she can touch it, Viraine stabs her in the back.  

Matt:   27:14
Oh, okay.  

Erin:   27:15
She dies basically, but she becomes sort of disembodied, and so she can still see what's happening in the room. Even though she can also see her own corpse bleeding out in the middle of the room. While she's in this disembodied state,, she hears the conversation that happens after Viraine stabs her, which is that the gods were betrayed by Kurue, the goddess of wisdom, because she thought that by betraying their plans, she could get in good with Itempas again.  

Matt:   27:43
Most unwise. 

Erin:   27:44
Like, yeah, to her, that seemed like the most wise choice. And she didn't want to rely on a mortal to help them. There's also the reveal that Kurue killed her mother.

Matt:   27:55
Oh, my.

Erin:   27:55
And was the one organizing that.

Matt:   27:57
Okay, yeah, you're gonna have to explain that

Erin:   27:59
Bit a plot twist. I think partially to bring Enefa's soul to Sky so that it could be destroyed for good.

Matt:   28:06
I see, okay.

Erin:   28:06
We also get the reveal at the same time that Viraine has been holding Itempas. He's been the host body for the main god this whole time. Well, not this whole time, ever since Yeine's mother left. And he was so angry and hurt by that that he appealed to Itempas and ended up with the god in him. So there's a lot of that happening. So Itempas reveals himself and mentions that you know, he wants to destroy Enefa forever and whatever is left of her. In the meantime, Nahadoth speaks up for Yeine and says that she was more than just a vessel for Enefa's spirit, revealing that there's some really emotion there beyond just like hey, you have my dead lover's soul in you, which I'm sure is a complicated emotional place.

Matt:   28:51
No kidding. Instead of hey you have my dead lover's soul in you, it's hey, you have my dead lover soul in you and also...I'm kind of attracted to you as well.  

Erin:   28:58
Yeah, which...more complicated as an emotional...?

Matt:   0:00
One hundred percent.  

Erin:   29:02
I mean, I've never been in that position.

Matt:   29:04
Me either. But just imagine the dissonance. Right, the guilt!

Erin:   29:08
So Nahadoth and Itempas go at each other - fighting. Important clarification.

Matt:   29:13
Right.

Erin:   29:14
And the other godlings joining the fight as well. And as that's happening, Scimina just pulls out a knife and, like, goes at Relad because I guess we just might as well -

Matt:   29:24
Might as welll.,

Erin:   29:26
- have complete carnage. So while this is happening, Yeine realizes that she's still around, and she has a bit of a conversation with Enefa, and ends up being able to bring herself back to life, basically, but with Enefa's full power. They kind of combine souls, and they combine the power because the stone that had Enefa's power like fell in Yeine's blood in the chaos.  

Matt:   29:49
Okay.  

Erin:   29:49
So they kind of merge into one. But it's Yeine's soul and personality that ends up taking over, and Enefa's may be still there a little bit, but she doesn't just become Enefa. She becomes herself, but god. And she's almost on another level of existence, like she only gradually recognizes the other people in the room as who they are. But she has all this power. She frees the godlings and she stops Itempas and Nahadoth from fighting. She's like, "This realm is not going to survive another war, so I'm not gonna let you." Because Nahadoth wants to kill Itempas as revenge for having enslaved them.

Matt:   30:25
Everything, yeah.

Erin:   30:25
And also killed Enefa. But she's like, "No, the world needs all three of us, needs three main gods, or else it'll cease to function, which is already happened. We need to keep the three." But they still need to do something about Itempas. So she and Nahadoth combine their powers and they make him serve the world and sort of walk amongst them as - not completely mortal, but he doesn't really have access to his powers, he just has to help people. And she also adds that his sentence can end early if he learns to love truly, once again, which is a bit of an odd a fairytale ending to throw in there..

Matt:   0:00
It is! Indeed. I was gonna say, very Beauty and the Beast.

Erin:   31:01
Exactly. Exactly. And Nahadoth doesn't think that Itempas can change, but it's clear that Itempas still has a lot of emotions, especially towards Nahadoth, because the two of them predated Enefa and like, fought and then were lovers. And then everything got bad. But Yeine still believes that he can change and that there is possibility for him to return to them. And she kisses him as a promise that, like when he's earned it, she will forgive him and also thinks that Nahadoth probably will as well. So they have this awkward conversation about, "Are you Enefa? Are you Yeine? What's happening?" Especially with Sieh who is like, "Are you my mom now?"

Matt:   31:42
Are you my mother? Literally  

Erin:   31:45
She's like, "No," and he's like, "That's okay, like I still love you anyway." So it's  a cute little reunion. She kills Kurue for betraying them.  

Matt:   31:54
Fair. Honestly, again, most unwise.

Erin:   31:59
So Scimina has succeeded in killing Relad during the chaos.

Matt:   32:03
I see.  

Erin:   32:03
But she gives her cousin to Nahadoth as revenge, I guess.

Matt:   32:07
Tell me the drunk becomes emperor.  

Erin:   32:09
No, he died.  

Matt:   32:11
Oh, oh, well. So it goes.

Erin:   32:13
Oh, and she also separates out Nahadoth's mortal daytime self into his own person, which is kind of cool.

Matt:   32:20
Okay, yeah. 

Erin:   32:22
So he can go live his own life because life has kind of sucked up till now. And her grandfather, who is still alive in the middle of all this, she addresses him. And he thinks that everything is gonna be chaos because she tells him that the gods are going to leave the world, they're going to stop dealing with humans and being slaves to humans. And Dekarata is like, "This is gonna be terrible." And she's like, "I mean, it can't be worse than it is now." She also puts T'vril in charge as Dekarta's heir.

Matt:   32:48
That's nice.  

Erin:   32:48
Yeah, so there's some nice, like, equality. And then the story ends with her and Nahadoth basically leaving to go and explore what godhood is going to look like for her.  

Matt:   32:59
That's glorious. What an ending!

Erin:   33:01
Yeah!  

Matt:   33:02
Okay. I guess...first of all, I'll launch into my response by saying I think I like it more than "The Name of the Wind." A little bit.

Erin:   33:11
Yeah, so do I. To be, you know, honest.

Matt:   33:14
And, who knows? Maybe I like it more because you liked it more, and that was translated through your retelling. That's always possible. But I feel like the protagonist was a little bit more likeable. And that's saying quite a lot because she becomes a god.  

Erin:   33:30
She does become a god!

Matt:   33:30
And that's not a likeable characteristic, right? All powerful is not really something that you associate with likeable characters.  

Erin:   33:37
It's at least not relatable.  

Matt:   33:39
Yeah, no kidding. And yet, again, somehow I found her more relatable than the last protagonist.

Erin:   33:44
Interesting.

Matt:   33:44
So I just want to make that note. And also I feel like it was a bit more structured. And I don't know if you want to speak to that, since you actually read them both and you experienced the structure first-hand. But it sounds like there was more of a linear story here. There was more of an arc. We wanted to discuss the arc and we can come back to that, but whereas with "Name of the Wind," it was kind of all over the place. 

Erin:   34:11
"Name of the Wind" is very episodic, I think. Whereas this is a very clear - like the story has a beginning, middle, and end, and you can pinpoint when all of those happen..

Matt:   34:20
And you know what? Call me old fashioned, but I kind of like that. I kinda like the solid narrative with a beginning, middle, and end. But anyway, I digress. I also wanted to ask you some of the themes explored in this in this novel. Empire, subjugation, inequality. What do you think the allegory is here? What are they hinting at? Are hinting at anything?

Erin:   34:42
Like, I think the story is definitely allegorical. And I would say that, like, N.K. Jemisin probably meant for it to be, her works are usually pretty socially aware. She is herself a Black woman, which is maybe an important piece of context. I don't know if she's specifically saying anything about anything specific in terms of events, but there's definitely, I mean, there's a pretty obvious class issue to look at. There's a pretty obvious imperial issue to look at. Like I mentioned, I think close to the beginning. Yeine is a different ethnicity than most of the other people in Sky.

Matt:   35:14
You mentioned that you had a couple questions for me. 

Erin:   35:17
You know, general discussion questions. I tried to present this as much as possible, that the book is very - it just kind of comes at you and just keeps happening, and you're never really given, or at least I never felt like I had, a strong footing. It was always kind of throwing me for a bit of a loop, which I think is Yeine's experience.

Erin:   35:35
I was just about to say that. That's definitely got to be intentional.

Erin:   35:39
Yeah, yeah, like she's in a completely unfamiliar place with unfamiliar people who are actively trying to kill her. I guess I'm wondering, like, how do you feel about the way the story progressed? Did it feel like a natural progression to you of events and particularly when it comes to the ending. Like, the main character becomes a god at the end, which is kind of unusual, like, how do you feel about that? As - maybe not a reader, but an audience member?

Matt:   36:02
Right, well, usually,. and we mentioned this earlier, usually I wouldn't like that having your protagonist become an all powerful god, like being - first of all, I don't like when the protagonists come back from the dead, as a general rule. And she not only did that, but she came back from the dead with god-like ability. And then using those god-like abilities, fixed everything, tied it up neatly in a little bow. I can understand why that might be off putting to some people and why may seem like almost a cop-out. But to me it didn't. And I think it's because of the brilliant way in which the story was told. As an example, the inner dialogue that you realize is actually I guess technically, it isn't inner dialogue, but it's inner dialogue between two individuals, right? That was brilliant. The fact that, as you said, the story just keeps happening relentlessly to you. You don't have a second to catch your breath. Prime example of that is when I asked if the drunk became king and you said, "no, he died." I had no idea, right, because it just keeps going. It doesn't let up. And I think that is supposed to mirror the protagonists experience. So I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the way they tied it up. I think it's a satisfying ending for everyone. Maybe not the god of day, but but, you know, justice was served. And he has a chance to redeem himself.

Erin:   37:27
Yeah, yeah, I think it's interesting a little bit how the book kind of rides that line a little bit between like - and part of this is this is how mythology works a lot of the time where gods don't face consequences. It's understandable, you know, if you look a Greek mythology, Egyptian mythology, Norse mythology, where the gods do things to each other and then everything's just kind of okay afterwards. Like maybe they keep their grudges, but very rarely does a god kill another god and it's permanent. And I think it's interesting looking at, you know, maybe this is just me thinking too much into questions around redemption arcs, which I feel like is a very hot topic at the moment, that Itempas does get a punishment. He does get a consequence, but also it's not a permanent one. He has a chance to redeem himself. And like I said, I haven't read any of the other books yet, so I don't know if that is a focus. I don't know if that happens, but...

Matt:   38:19
Well, that's just it. I am very curious to - I mean, if you don't, then maybe I will read the rest of the series to see where this goes. I want to know if the God of Night becomes change incarnate again. If he's able to constantly shift. Or if he's -  I just I wanna know what happens next, right?

Erin:   38:35
There is a sweet moment where, when she becomes a goddess, she's able to see all of his faces at once. One of the other questions that I was wondering was if you had to put a name to the arc because I said we would come back to that. Is there an arc that this fits into? What would you say is the arc being explored?  

Matt:   38:53
That's a very good question, and you may agree with me, you may not, but to me this sounds like a coming of age story.  

Erin:   39:01
It is in a way, yeah. 

Matt:   39:02
It sounds like our main character is - she goes off to get answers and revenge for her parents' death and rise to the occasion and realizes that that she's in peril and does everything she can to avoid that, kind of becomes the woman that she is. Well, I guess the goddess, that is, by the end of it, because of all of the strife that she had to endure throughout the book, I think it's brilliantly done. What about you?  

Erin:   39:29
Yeah, well, and you mentioned allegory earlier, like I wonder if there's allegory in - again, maybe this is me reading too much into this, but of her literally embracing the goddess within. Is that a sort of self discovery?

Matt:   39:43
Oooh, hadn't considered that angle. That's exactly - that's - you say you're reading too much into it, that's exactly your job, right? We're trying to do analysis here.  

Erin:   39:53
It's true.  

Matt:   39:53
Yeah, no, 100% percent, I think that you're definitely on to something.

Erin:   39:56
And to what extent is this a romance?

Matt:   40:02
You know, there are definitely elements of romance in the story. It's definitely not a focus, which is great, maybe not in the traditional way that romantic subplot would be conveyed in a high fantasy novel like this. I think a lot of the romance - forgive me for this - is self romance. Self-love, you know? She's learning to, as you say, embrace herself and embrace the goddess within. And in doing so, she does fall for this god of night and has a happily ever after with him. But I feel as though the happily ever after with him is not dependent on him, and that he's more just kind of there is an ancillary support, teaching you how to god kind of function.

Erin:   40:49
Yeah, and there's - the implication is definitely that the most happy version of this ending is that Itempas will rejoin them and they will be a happy triad again.  

Matt:   40:59
Indeed, indeed.  

Erin:   41:00
Which is kind of interesting. There's potentially a - I don't know if it's a critique, but - to be levelled of, Nahadoth is very literally a dark, brooding hero. And they address this with story that she's like, "Am I attracted to him because he's dangerous?" Like, literally the bad boy.  

Matt:   41:17
Yeah, no kidding. But in terms of romance, I also I think we can't not acknowledge the fact that there is definitely a bit of a perhaps former love triangle type of thing going on there, right? It's not even necessarily a one way street. When the god of day is about to walk off and experience his punishment, she kisses him. Yeah, as a symbol that the two of them will for - that doesn't - you know, that's not exactly - if someone kissed me that wouldn't be to me a symbol that you're gonna forgive me one day that that seems like a very godly method of communication. A little - and that's what I mean. There's romantic elements, but it's not a human romance, you know, it's kind of beyond mortal romance is I think what I'm trying to get to.

Erin:   42:01
Yes, I would agree. And I blew past this a little bit or didn't mention it because it isn't really all that relevant, but there's a scene to where Sieh kisses her, the child trickster god. And it's not romantic, but it's still there. And there's maybe, you know, a thread to be pulled about these different kisses with these different gods and how it means different things.

Matt:   42:23
One hundred percent. I mean you as a writer yourself - are we admitting that?

Erin:   42:27
Yeah. My dirty secret.

Matt:   42:31
Yeah, no kidding.  Yeah, you as a writer yourself, you have often told me writers don't put things in books unless it's there for a reason. Typically. Good writers.   

Erin:   0:00
Some writers. 

Matt:   43:10
Good writers, if you will. You know, they don't just toss things in willy-nilly. Books go through so many levels of revision and editing, and if they did include everything they wanted, it'd be 700 page book and then we'd be reviewing - 

Both:   43:10
- "The Name of the Wind" again.

Matt:   43:10
But point is, they don't put things in books unless serves a function. Whether that function is clear or whether it's a little more vague and this, I think, falls into the vague category. But it definitely - you hit the nail on the head when you said there's a thread to be pulled.

Erin:   43:11
And my last question is, and maybe this is to link up a little bit with this comparison we've making with "The Name of the Wind" because they were both fantasy novels coming out within a year of each other, in what way does this stack up as a fantasy novel? Like it's in many ways, very different.  

Matt:   43:26
Well, first I'll give my preference. As someone who enjoys fantasy,I like the real high fantasy,, high power, intrigue in a magical medieval setting, if you will. And this did it for me. "Name of the Wind," not really so much, it was more, as you said, episodic, it was more focused on the details of one supposedly epic protagonist. Now, if we're talking empirically or academically, which one do I think is a better piece of fiction? Which one is better work of high fantasy? Empirically academically, probably "The Name of the Wind" just in that the setting, the characters, the fact that a lot of the characters fall into pre-established fantasy tropes. The Hero's Journey story is more indicative of your classic high fantasy. Probably. Me as no expert. That's what I'm going to say on that. However, that does beg the question, do tropes and arcs make good high fantasy? Is it good because it follows all of the rules, if you will, of high fantasy? Is - does high fantasy have to follow all those rules in order to be good? I don't think so. And I think that "The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms" is a prime example of that in that it doesn't necessarily follow as closely a lot of the tropes and arcs that are indicative of a classical fantasy, but it is still excellent,

Erin:   45:02
I would agree, I would agree, and I'm hoping that we can look at a lot of the more unusual fantasy and sci fi books, especially that have come out in more recent years in this podcast as we go forward.

Matt:   45:11
Yeah, definitely. It's maybe even a little more dangerous, because I feel like that's too provocative. But, you know, it's - it takes more risks -

Erin:   45:21
I like it.

Matt:   45:25
And I can really appreciate that. I think those risks really paid off.

Erin:   45:25
And with that, I think concludes our discussion on "The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms" by N.K. Jemisin. The next time we're going to be taking a bit of a divergence into the world of science fiction, and we're going to be talking about "Wanderers" by Chuck Wendig, which for those wanting to read along at home, might strike some chords for the world we're currently living in.

Matt:   45:45
Thank you all for tuning in and listening. Don't forget to, you know, like and subscribe drop a comment below yada yada all that jazz

Erin:   45:54
I'm Erin Rockfort, you can find me @pineapplefury on Twitter.

Matt:   45:58
And I'm Matt Thomas, and you cannot reach me.

Erin:   46:01
And this has been the Bro-dacious Book Club! Thanks so much for tuning in, catch ya next time.